Scaling DeFi Infrastructure with Malik Corbett, CEO of Hekaton

Welcome butterscotch queens and kings to your only source for inclusive and comprehensive crypto coverage.

This is The Get Down, a podcast diving deep into Web 3 and D5.

I'm your host, Ritzy P.

Each episode, I get down with diverse founders, builders, change makers, and executives in the cryptoverse.

The crypto industry is not a monolith.

Black, Latino, and indigenous stories matter.

Join diverse discussions on policy trends and market research about the blockchain ecosystem.

Welcome to The Get Down.

Hola and welcome to the Get Down Beyond Bitcoin podcast.

I'm Richie P, and in this episode's All Things Butterscotch segment with CEO and managing editor of Butterscotch Media, Cleb Messador, we'll go into what's happening with butterscotch with our 2nd year anniversary.

And then later in this episode, I'll have a conversation with Malik Corbett, the co-founder and CEO of Hecaton.

Malik's career in finance has spanned over 15 years.

Working for firms such as Bloomberg Financial, JP Morgan, and MDSL.

We'll dive into his journey as an early pioneer in DeFi.

So now, let's get into all things butterscotch with Cleve Messador.

Hi Clev, how are you?

Hey, Ritzy.

Oh my God, I can't believe it's already 2026 and we're a quarter of the way in.

How did we get here?

I know.

So, speaking of, you know, we're, we're gonna be next month will be the two-year anniversary of Butterscotch Media.

Tell us more of how it's been and what we, you know, can look forward to.

Yeah, I, well, it's 2 years of butterscotch media and as you know we sought to build a platform so we can talk about inclusion in the blockchain and cryptocurrency space.

We wanted to highlight the diverse founders.

The builders, the influencers, the, the executives, the policymakers who are really growing this, this $4 trillion market but don't get coverage in the media and people don't hear enough about them and I.

I'm so proud of what we've built and I'm so proud that you've been part of this journey so thank you for answering the call and joining as the podcast host but doing such a great job you know I will say that for Butterscotch we we reach over 10,000.

And the extended reach is probably, you know, double that, but a third of our, actually more than a third of our subscribers are Capitol Hill staffers, you know, another third is about, you know, the crypto industry, but another third is, you know, folks in policy, folks across different.

Industries focus across public institutions so we're really excited about our reach going into, you know, embarking on a 3rd year and figuring out where to go next, what to do next, so very excited and very excited about all of the many milestones before us.

Awesome.

Yes, and, and she's talking about the, the Choose a newsletter that she does every week, filled with so much information and so make sure we'll have links in the show notes for you to, to sign up and, and participate in that.

So going into season two of the podcast, can you tell us a little bit more about the updated name?

Yeah, yeah, so you know you just mentioned shoes.

It's our weekly tip sheet comes out every Monday.

Oh my god, and I get so many emails from folks saying thank you, this is where I get the most information, you know, people share sharing it with their colleagues.

So the newsletter has been.

Wait and you know we're gonna talk about the podcast but we also do live events so that's the beauty of you know butterscotch we are a platform a niche media platform, a suite, a studio you know so the weekly newsletter, the the monthly podcast.

The live journalism has been great in terms of making sure we're building trust with our subscribers but also making sure our audience gets quality information, you know, so our podcast last year, you know, we changed the name from just The Get Down to The Get Down, you know, beyond Bitcoin, but.

Also we're going into season two, so our first season we had these amazing, you know, guests, you know, including Congressman Darren Soto from Florida, including Kristen Smith who's the former CEO of the Black Chain Association, you know, including, you know, Monica Talon from Crypto Connexion, so.

So this season we're excited to go deeper.

The policy landscape has changed, so the podcast conversations are gonna change.

We've seen, you know, that we've had to change the tip sheet, choose, you know, cover so much more information.

We operate at that intersection of policy and black shining cryptocurrency.

But we're very excited and certainly we're excited about, you know, this first episode of season one and I think the audience is in for a treat with your conversation with Malik.

Speaking of Malik, how do you know Malik?

I'm a big fan of Malik.

He is, you know, this uber entrepreneur who's doing amazing things in the DeFi space.

We actually met last year at a Black Chain Association event.

As the audience knows, I've been collaborating with the Black Chain Association since 2018, 2019.

And Malik's organization Hecaton used to be a member of the Black Chain Association.

They were a member company.

I don't think they, they are this year, but you know it was so refreshing to meet Malik and hear about the great work that he was doing, and I said he has to be a part of the podcast.

So excited to share his story.

I'm excited to, you know, share the story with everyone else as well.

And you mentioned earlier about Butterscotch Media, how we have the newsletter, the tip sheet, we have the podcast, and, you know, live journalism.

Can you talk about something that's coming up in April as a live event?

Yes, yes, so the live journalism is actually, you know, where we actually get to sometimes at a conference do a live podcast or do a live event to to get some of our speakers as part of the conversation, but this time we want to highlight the fact that niche digital media is really has really overtaken traditional media in terms of trust, in terms of reach, in terms of relevance.

Right, so we know the data shows that you know large media legacy institutions are struggling to connect with their audiences, their readers, their viewers, but niche media is, you know, doing a great job in terms of filling that gap and making sure that.

Audience has various audiences have access to information. so against the backdrop of the annual Washington DC correspondents Dinner week and weekend that happens every year in Washington, they call it DC Media prom.

It's called.

I think it's called the nerd prom, but I'll say, you know, DC media prom, but against that backdrop as well as April is Financial Education month, so we really want to use April again because it's a focus on financial education as well as, you know, the DC media big party bashes happening.

We wanna have a conversation with niche media outlets.

So Butterscotch Media, we're bringing about 4 media platforms.

Together and you'll be you'll be participating, excited to have you participate to talk about how we actually curate content for our audiences, how we build trust, how we make sure that we're relevant and meeting the needs of small groups, which is where the future of media is coming.

So for the audience, stay tuned.

The registration platform we.

Be available soon we're very excited about this conversation we think it's very timely and you know we wanna celebrate the niche media outlets that are focused on financial education that are focused on the future of finance and, and, and really share this conversation about how we build and what the opportunities and challenges are so stay tuned we're calling it Trust Media.

I'm excited for this live event and for everyone to participate because this is, like you said, timely, it's very important and the, the niche media is, is where people go to because they trust the host and they, and, and they, they kind of follow their lead and so that's why this is very, very important.

So, speaking of uh crypto, Defi, all that stuff, could you talk a little bit?

You're so entrenched, you're on boots on the ground and you're all over the place.

Could you give us a little bit of information on the state of crypto policy, uh, you know, this year and maybe some things that happened last year that you, you want to point out?

Yeah, yeah, so you know last year was very pivotal obviously we had a new president, a new administration come in, a very crypto friendly president and administration, and you know we actually passed the first, you know, single bill on crypto into law.

You know, the Genius Act as people hear about it, but it was really a stablecoin bill that actually became law and we are now in the rulemaking process.

And why does that matter at the end of the day, the Genius Act really determined who could actually issue stablecoins, but that was an important first step.

And now most people don't realize it because a bill becomes law doesn't mean that that's the end of it, right?

The regulators have to decide, you know, what are the rules for the SEC, what are the rules for the OCC, what are the rules for NCUA, because the genius law created a pathway for credit unions to become issuers of, uh, stablecoins via their subsidiaries called QSOs.

So you know.

Last year that was the biggest thing and I do want to give you know credit to the work that, you know, former Congressman McHenry did along with Congresswoman Maxine Waters.

They spent years working on that piece of legislation.

It definitely passed last, you know, last year under this current administration, but they, we deserve a lot of work for, for what they did to actually get stablecoin legislation to where it is and.

This year we're debating market structure.

I will tell you market structure is a is a heavier lift, you know, there is, you know, there has been push back on the stable corn law by banks and, and their trade groups and so markets, the market structure legislation that is being debated in the Senate right now, as the audience knows, the House passed their Clarity Act.

They actually passed.

The market structure legislation because the House Agriculture Committee and the House Financial Services Committee joined together on clarity and passed the law early on.

So now the, the Senate is not in a, in a position to do that.

So Senate AG has, has a bill, and they've marked it up because the CFTC is under Senate is under Agriculture Committees, and the Senate Banking Committee has a bill but hasn't gone to mark up.

So we're now in debate.

I do wanna share with the audience that you know in my professional capacity I'm the executive director for Blockchain Foundation and we actually propose an amendment to the Senate market structure bill and the Senate Banking Market structure bill.

The amendment would actually call for a federal.

Study that it would call for the funding of a federal study by the OCC, the FDIC, and the Fed to actually look at what is the pathway for CDFIs and MDIs, these small institutions that meet the needs of banking deserts in rural and urban America.

You know what is the pathway for them to potentially be authorized for digital assets is the role of Washington there's always opposition.

We were very disappointed that the this this amendment of a federal study that does nothing but study the issue faced opposition by this trade group called the the Community Development.

Development Bankers Association, the Community Development Bankers Association opposed this, you know, they lobbied against it to Senate Democratic staffers and essentially torpedoed the, the amendment.

You know, it's ironic because in the Genius Act and Stablecoin we actually passed.

Legislation to to create a pathway for credit unions.

Why this organization would actually, you know, essentially block something that would at least study, you know, a pathway for, you know, CDFIs and MDIs is beyond me.

I tried to reach out to them to find out the merit.

Of why they didn't wanna do this and I heard that there wasn't any merits, you know, they never got back to me, but it, it, it wasn't clear it was just unfortunate because the American public deserve more than just crypto ATMs and those kiosks and you know, legacy organizations like the, you know.

Like this, you know, Community Development Bankers Association should, you know, advocate for, you know, the members and what's right for Americans instead of for themselves.

But, you know, we, we, we still have a long way to go.

There's a lot of runway where all eyes are on the Senate Banking Committee because we still need them to do a mock up and even if they are able to do a mockup.

You know, in the coming months it will take a while to reconcile the Senate Senate legislation with House legislation and go to conference and get a bill to the president's desk for signage.

Hopefully we can get that done this year, but.

We're also, you know, measuring success differently, you know, there's a big, big housing bill in the Senate that is moving forward, and I share that because there's a provision in there.

There's they've been chopping an anti-CBDC provision that has now landed in the Senate banking housing bill.

There's a lot of back and forth debate happening in terms of when they should sunset, should it sunset, but you know, as I said, we have to measure success differently, and one of the things, you know, is this housing bill and this small provision, you know, that would say that we don't want a CBDC, which would be a, a central bank digital currency in the US because that would essentially be surveillance money for the government and.

And so, so, so as you can see there's a lot happening.

There's a lot still to monitor, but for the audience, the important thing for them to know is that with the passing of the Genius Act and it becoming law and now we're in the rulemaking, the merits of blockchain cryptocurrency are not up for debate beyond the fact that you can debate them.

They are part of our financial system.

They are part of our laws.

They are here.

We can definitely improve the process.

We can definitely, you know.

Bring more voices to the table and you know do what we didn't do when we debated the internet in the 1990s.

We created the laws and let the industry flow and now you know we saw with Yield and so many groups saying hey let's talk about this and.

We're leveraging the market structure bill to have a conversation about stable coin yield and what that should look like, and there's been tons of debate about this.

So you know, let's figure out the right rules.

Let's take the time to come to terms.

And even if we actually find a solution, if we need to come back to the table, let's do that.

But let's not pretend the future of digital finance is not here and that cryptocurrency and blockchain are not part of the future.

So you know, a big update on, you know, policy, we like to say that for the fork.

We focus on policy, not politics, but you know there's never been an industry that has so much implications for the, you know, policy and rule making so I'm glad that butterscotch media can really fill that void and make sure we keep our audience updated.

Right.

As you have heard, that's why you should join the newsletter.

That's why you should support and, and listen, watch these, um, podcasts, these episodes, and, and participate in the events because not only is Cleve knowledgeable, she's literally boots on the ground trying to make Uh, change policy so that we could all benefit from it.

So that is very important.

Thank you for everything that you do, Cleve.

Speaking of all that you do, let's talk about, I can't keep up with you, Cleve.

You are everywhere, all over the world.

I'm exhausted just watching your updates.

So let's talk about some of your 2026 activities so far.

Yeah, that's the one thing about, you know, the crypto space, it keeps you busy.

I tell people all the time crypto is like football any given day there's a football game somewhere.

Right, so, but you know this year has been exciting.

Every year is, you know, exciting in terms of events and activities for crypto.

You know what, one of the activities I was most excited about is in January I got to participate in the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos, which was amazing.

It ended up, it ended up being the most.

Historic Davos ever with the largest US delegation attending and with a huge, you know, crypto presence but you know crypto has been present at Davos since 2017 thanks to GBVC led by Sandra Rowe.

I was thrilled this year to be part of the GBBC delegation.

I moderated a panel on tokenization.

Which is an important, you know, aspect of cryptocurrency that, you know, founders and builders and small businesses and small financial institutions are paying attention to, but Davos was such a transform transformational experience for me being able to.

See the landscape of not just large mega tech companies but countries like Brazil, countries like Nigeria, Belgium, across the spectrum of folks who are Actually creating the future of digital finance and going from, you know, across the promenade from house to house and being part of the conversations like Semaphore had a great conversation with the CEO of Flutterwave outside of uh out of Africa.

So you know Davos is such an interesting.

And, and overwhelming, you know, platform.

So I'm, I'm glad it was my first time going to, you know, the, the WF in in Davos.

I know, you know, a lot of people want to go.

I will say, you know, on the world stage.

You know we've we've advanced to a point of globalization where there are so many centers of the world that are important.

So while you know Davos in Switzerland looking at the future from a Western lens.

There's also a world government summit, a world government summit that happens every February in Dubai that happened right after Davos.

So I have my eyes focused there next year to try to go to the World Government Summit in Dubai.

And because obviously you know when you look at the global south and its importance in digital finance you saw a lot more countries convene you know in Dubai in February but you know it would be nice to be able to go from Davos to the World Government Summit.

I wish it wasn't.

Such an expensive financial proposition for both, but you know I do it was an honor to be present in Davos this year, especially at such a consequential convening, but also to moderate such an important conversation for GBBC on tokenization.

You know this year is, is, is not unlike any other year.

There's, you know, so much going on.

I'm excited.

April, I'm speaking at a forum for Eve Wealth.

Eve Wealth is a platform that focuses focuses on women and financial bring financial services to women, including digital assets.

Last year they had their first big conference and they brought women in.

In in web 3 in finance together in FinTech, so I'm excited to be one of their speakers in Arizona in April.

So that's one of the conferences I'm looking forward to.

I'll be back as a speaker for Money 2020 later this year.

So excited about that.

I will say this year is an abbreviated year.

For a lot of reasons, like, most people know it's a midterm year and this year the midterms are very, very, very, very consequential, right?

March kicked us off with we saw races in Texas, in North Carolina, in Arkansas, but there's also the FIFA World Cup that's coming to the US, you know, that is, oh my God, you know, historic, right?

And that was kickoff in June.

I'm excited.

I'll be in Atlanta in July for the Haiti games.

So if you're, I believe the date is July 14th, I have my ticket.

I'll be there rooting on my birthplace, Haiti in the World Cup.

And believe it or not, this is the first time Haiti has qualified for the World Cup since the year I was born in 1973.

Haiti qualified.

That was the last time they qualified for the World Cup, so.

The FIFA World Cup being, you know, in the US, in Mexico, you know, is a big deal, and then the 250 year anniversary, you know, in the US, July is going to be all about that, you know, so between FIFA World Cup, the 2500th anniversary, then going into the midterm primaries and midterm election.

You know, I, I, I, I feel like we have a short runway for policy.

We have a short runway for, for activities, but you know it's, it's a pivotal year so the audience should make sure they take advantage of for all of these activities.

Thank you.

And you know, if you want to keep abreast of where Cleve's at, make sure again to, to join the newsletter because she just brought back one of people's favorite sections.

What is it called?

Where in the World is Clever.

I was, I used, I do it sporadically, and I get, you know, I get all of these questions.

Bring that back.

I wanna know where you're going to be.

So, so now every month we're going to, if we choose, we're gonna kick off the month with where in the hell is where in the world is clever, and I, I'll share where I'll be so this way, you know, if you'll be there we can connect because I know.

You know, crypto is still so early and there are so many folks who need access points, so I'm happy to and and honored to be a resource as needed.

Awesome.

Well, thank you so much, Cleve.

If you get a chance to see her speak live, please do.

Cleve's been in this, uh, you know, space for such a long time and she has never wavered when it comes to making sure that our people are represented, our communities are heard, and that policies reflect, um, all of us.

So thank you for that, and I look forward to our next discussion about all things butterscotch.

Thank you, Etsy.

So let's welcome our butterscotch king, Malik Corbett, who is an entrepreneur, technologist, and financier.

Malik is an Afro-Latino co-founder and CEO of Hecatton, a proprietary trading company focused on digital assets.

In addition to his technical duties as a quant engineer on the trading desk assisting the team in building trading infrastructure and strategies, Malik oversees the strategic and business direction of the firm.

Malik also brings a wealth of experience and technical skills along with strong leadership skills to help usher in the next generation of financial trading firm.

So, Malik, thank you so much for joining us.

Excited to dive into our conversation.

Uh, before we, you know, talk about what you're building, can you tell us a little bit about your journey into crypto and what attracted you to the space?

Oh, well, thanks for, for having me.

I'm excited, uh, to be here.

Um, so what, uh, got me into the space, I started out in, in traditional finance.

Uh, I was, uh, cut my teeth at, uh, Bloomberg, and there I was, I managed, uh, you know, uh, I was a sales, uh, representative.

I oversaw Midwest states like Ohio and Illinois.

And from there, uh, I went on to a smaller, a smaller firm called MDSL, uh, what they, they did, they were in they were a market data inventory management, uh, uh, firm, and so I oversaw the North American business, I was there for a few years, and then I had this crazy idea to get into the startup world.

I don't, my wife looked at me like I was nuts when I, when I decided to do that.

Leaving a really good paying job and, and going into the startup world, went from there.

I my first foray into, into the startup world was actually, uh, worked for, uh, a sentiment mining company which is, uh, I guess it's like a, you can say it's a precursor to what we're seeing today with open AI and all these, these things.

And what we were doing is we were taking like Twitter data and overlaying with sentiment, uh, uh, data over that.

And firms would use that and trade over it.

But that's where I met my uh current partner now.

His name is Tynan Overstreet and uh I was the chief revenue officer at this particular firm and he was overseeing taking this, this, this high value data and creating trading strategies as research for, for firms to say, hey, what do we do with this data, you know, that we got it, you know, how do we implement this into a trading strategy?

And he was, he was the one who was responsible for that.

But him and I, we kinda saw that it was a bubble, uh, this is around like 2015, and we say, hey, let's, let's start our own thing and so in 2016, uh, we started, uh, Hecatton, uh, together we had a founder's moment, uh, and we, we quickly, you know, got into, into crypto and we, we've been trading proprietary, uh, since then, uh, we raised a little bit of money from family and friends and, and we've been off to the races since, since then.

Wow, uh, it's crazy because that you've been in the space for such a long time.

I'm sure you've seen it evolved.

So, it's such a treat to have someone that's, you know, uh, considered to be a DeFi expert on the show.

There's so much confusion out there about decentralized finance.

That's what DFI stands for.

What would be your one minute definition of what DFI is?

Yeah, it's, it, it is jarring, uh, when you think about D5 because it's so different from traditional finance, but I would say it's an alternative, uh, financial system, right?

That is collapses the, the friction and the cost, uh, between like intermediaries.

In, in the traditional sense.

So, you know, it does away with, uh, you know, like a centralized exchange, it does away with the broker dealer, it does away with the, you know, the, the, the transfer agent, you know, things like that, that is very expensive in traditional finance.

Uh, and so it, it, it collapses those costs, uh, and it's, uh, it's a, an open infrastructure that anyone around, uh, with an internet access around the world can, can actually transact and, and, and, and do things.

Awesome.

Thank you for that one minute uh definition.

So now let's Uh, so now let's discuss your path, uh, to becoming a developer and builder.

It's clear from your background and a little bit what you told us already.

You're a serial entrepreneur and innovator.

What led you into the creation of Hecaton?

Yeah, so, you know, we initially, when we first started, uh, we, we initially had a, uh, a platform.

Uh, that we call slice matrix, and it was, uh, it was a platform that basically took like one-liners and, and Python, uh, and, and spun up models.

So it's a wrapper around like, uh, machine learning models.

So when quants want to create, you know, different types of, of, of strategies, they use models within those strategies and so these were easy ways to spin it up but.

As we quickly found out is that when you're dealing with quants they don't really wanna rip out the things that they have already internally, uh, a lot of it is proprietary or they're using, uh, third party software that's very well known so we pivoted and, and went into, into crypto.

So we took, we, you know, we started eating our own food and we use that, uh, in crypto and it was very successful and so.

You know, we, we, we also had a couple of ideas that, you know, wanna, uh, we wanted to open up a decks and do the different things of that nature, but, um, the regulatory environment, especially in 2016, 2017, was really tough, and, and we thought we were too, too good looking to go to jail, so we, we decided not to do that and we, uh, we, we, we were prop trading, uh, and, and we were also doing, we were also experimenting with different technologies and stuff like that.

Um, but we weren't putting out, out necessarily out there in the open, um, so that's what we're doing, we're really experimenting, um, learning a lot because it's really different from traditional finance, and, you know, uh, now that the regulatory environment has cleared up, you know, it opens the door for a lot of the things that we learned, a lot of things that we, we have internally to, you know, to have it in more public facing.

Right.

Speaking of public-facing, let's talk about, you know, your new effort, the atomic vault system, if you could tell us a little bit more about that.

Yeah, um, so I'm, we're really excited about the atomic vault system.

Uh, a vault is, is, is basically just, uh, a way for people to stake in, in self-custody, but stake into a, a particular strategy and, and be able to, to, to generate or earn yield, right?

So, uh, instead of the person creating different types of, uh, exotic strategies and stuff like that themselves, which takes a lot of expertise and Uh, and networking and in trading itself, um, instead of, uh, having all that expertise, you can leverage that, uh, on, on a vault, uh, on a blockchain.

So it, it's the new way of, of, um, an investment platform.

I don't wanna give too much away.

We have our own spin on, on, on this.

We, we, uh, think that it's gonna be a, a, a big hit and we're very excited about it.

We're gonna, um, uh, release it in the, uh, uh, 2nd quarter of this year.

Uh, that's when we plan to release it, so around May, uh.

We're looking to to release that out into the public, so we're really excited about it right now we have uh the first vote that will be going out is a market neutral vote, which is really cool because right now you can see we're in a bear market volatility is really, really crazy.

So what market neutral really means is that you don't care if the market goes up or down, it's still supposed to, to make money, uh, no matter what.

So that's the, the first vault we're gonna to, to put out so people can earn yield, uh, and we're super excited.

It's doing really well right now.

It's been running since September 1st and it's up over 45%, uh, so it's with sharps of like 8 over 8%.

So, uh, it's really, it's really cool and we're really excited.

Uh, but we want it to be a platform where people can find different types of strategies, and it doesn't have to be our strates.

It could be anybody's, uh, any external managers strategy, and if they like it, they like the, the characteristics of it, it'll be as easy as, you know, downloading an app on your phone.

You can easily, uh, get access to the strategy, but most importantly, Um, you have control of your money, right?

Like that's the cool thing.

Uh, never the, the, the manager never has custody of it and person can, uh, uh, call for, for their money anytime they want to redeem their money anytime they want.

Uh, so it's a really cool what we call unstaking, it's not redemption, that's the traditional way.

That makes sense.

Yeah, no, that's, that's super exciting, especially with so many people that are getting a little bit more curious about it and having kind of like, mm.

A place where it's not as complicated to to navigate, right?

That's what it sounds like, like a one-stop shop so that you can to, you know, explore and stuff.

So that's fantastic.

That's exactly what we're trying to do, make it easy for people to, to use, use the system because it is complicated, um, the like a lot of the, the, um, the interfaces that you're gonna use to, to work into Defi, admittedly it, it is complicated in, in, in some of these, these, these applications.

Yeah, and it's, it can be intimidating.

You're just like, it's too overwhelming.

I can't, I can't do it.

But if you make it like this, so very excited to, to see when that launches.

You said in May, we'll keep an eye on that for sure.

Um, I'm sure the audience is curious about your impact.

So if you wanna, you know, give yourself some flowers and share, you know, some of the most proud moments as a startup founder, because I know that road isn't easy.

Uh, it definitely is not easy, um.

Uh, I don't normally give myself flowers, but I guess if I was gonna give myself some flowers, I, I think just being here, right, uh, we've been doing this for like 8 years, right, is, is an accomplishment in itself, right?

It's really hard, especially being, you know, a, a, a minority, uh, uh, founder, right?

It's not, it's not easy, uh, in terms of trying to, especially and being in high tech, right, like that, that is another, another thing, right.

Uh, it's like, like, uh, I'm a unicorn in itself.

You don't really see a lot of African Americans or Latinos in, in the space.

So, um, you know that and the stuff that I'm here, there's a, uh, an essay that anybody who's into, uh, who wants to be an entrepreneur, um, there's an essay by Paul Graham, uh, I, I believe it's called Avoid Dying or something like that, something that people should look it up.

But it, but the whole premise of it is that the longer that you stay in the game and that you be an entrepreneur, whatever you have to do to stay in the game, eventually you're gonna get rich, right?

You're eventually you're gonna.

And so, so, you know, being an entrepreneur is, is really staying in the game, right, and, and finding ways to, to not run out of money until you get the idea off the ground, right?

That is a very important thing and I don't think enough people talk about that.

So I think that in itself it just proves, you know, that your longevity proves that, you know, uh, you're doing the right thing.

So that, that in itself to me.

Is an accomplishment.

The second thing I think um is I would say another um milestone I'm happy about or I'm uh uh um I'm proud about is the um culture that I, I, we've built here.

I would like to say that the way I approach, uh, you know, my partnerships, the way I approach, uh, the, the stakeholders.

Um, it, it builds a very family environment.

So that in itself, the culture that we're building here and, and, and the way that we're going about doing business to me.

It's something I'm extremely proud about because that's the foundation, right, because you know you have your founders, but then how you, you guys form that foundation is where the company is gonna go, uh, and you gotta constantly work at that.

It's not easy.

You're not always gonna get along with your partners.

You're not always gonna like your partners and whatnot, but it's like a marriage, like anything you have to work at it.

You have to you have to.

Grow yourself and that growth is evidence uh of, of just success that that we have.

So all that uh I'm really excited.

In addition to the success we had, we, I mean, we've made a lot of money, we, we're, we're doing a lot of good things in the space.

So those things are cool but without those two things, uh, knowing how to survive, um, knowing, um, uh, pursuing good ideas and knowing how to, how to execute.

And then, uh, being able to build a culture without those two things, I, I don't, I, I think it's really difficult, uh, to, to be an entrepreneur, especially if you think it's about being a lone ranger.

That's very rare that you see those companies succeed.

I'm not saying there aren't.

There's huge, many talented people that can do a lot of things, but it's really difficult.

You need partners and you need, you need to be able to understand that.

Yeah, no, that's fantastic.

Thank you for pointing that out, that especially because a lot of people don't talk about that.

I was recently in a, in a, a female, a woman's founder circle and we were talking about the culture.

Yeah, it would be great to have a million, you know, ARR, but the fact that when someone said, the fact that I can leave my full-time job and support my family and do this.

And I'm passionate about it and, and, and I keep going.

That's, that's important, especially when it comes to, you know, uh, marginalized founders, you know, we're just, we're, we're just rewriting everything from, from scratch.

So congratulations, you know, on all your success as, as a visionary founder, an early pioneer in DeFi, um.

So, I also want to commend you for taking the steps to understand and navigate policy and regulate and the regulatory landscape that you mentioned earlier, how that's shifted and changed as well.

Um, why is it important for founders in crypto, uh, to stay informed about policies, uh, impacting crypto at a federal and local and state levels?

Well, I mean, you're not doing your job as a founder if you're not, uh, understanding every part of the ship, right?

And policy is extremely important.

That's how things get done, right?

Um, I'm, I'm, I mean, you need to, you know, I'm not saying you gotta join a policy, uh, organization, even though I would, uh, recommend that you, you do that, right?

But, um, you should be in, you should be in the know about what's happening in Washington, what's happening on, on a state level, um, and.

You know, how is that impacting your business, right?

Especially from a nascent industry like, like, uh, DeFi.

Um, you, you don't have to be a government relations person or an attorney or anything like that, but you should have some friends who are those people that you should be talking to regularly.

Uh, you should be just be on top of these things because, um, if you're not aware of what's going on in Washington, then you're gonna be behind the eight ball and it's gonna be that much harder for you to succeed.

I mean, it, it, that's just as simple as that, right.

And so what is your message to policymakers and regulators when you meet them?

Well, a lot of times when I, I, I speak with officials, uh, the big message is, is educating them, right?

Like explaining to them what DFI is because again, it is jarring, it's different than traditional finance, right?

Like it's not the same.

Um, even like the technology is just so different, so bizarre.

A lot of things, uh, in DeFi meshes different components that you have in the traditional world.

So how do you label some of these things?

So education is a big thing.

But beyond the education, the big message that I have for policymakers and for any policymakers that's listening here, uh, is to keep it bipartisanship, right?

Like, like that is like that is really important, um, I'm.

I'm, you know, concerned more and more every day that it's becoming partisan, um, and, and that is, um, that, that's a concern, right?

So I, I, I, I, I would say both parties should work together.

This is, um, um, this technology is really important for the future of our country.

So if, if, if that's the case, if you're there to, to, to, to, for the future of our country as, as policymakers and.

As lawmakers, then do your job and, and, and let's keep the, the politics aside.

Um, so, you know, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but I have to ask you about the current crypto, but I am, right?

If I'm saying that I am about to, uh, the current crypto bear market and the volatility we've seen, um, I don't want you to put, you know, this is not financial advice, but what is your take on all of this right now?

Oh, all right, so, We've been in a bear market since what, uh, since, since the, the big liquidation which I call the, the, the, the crypto Black Friday which was October 10th of 2025.

So we've been in, in, in a bear market there.

But there's a couple of, uh, uh, of things.

I don't think crypto is gonna outperform the traditional markets in a, in a crash.

And so, I'm not saying that the, the, the traditional markets are gonna crash, but I think that there are things that people need to, to understand, right?

There are a number of macro forces.

That are converging right now, right?

We have, um, we have the AI bubble, uh, that we don't know if it's on this, on this last leg or not.

We, we don't know, but it's starting to have some cracks there, uh, so we have that, um, don't forget we still have persistent, uh, inflation that is a a thorn on people's sides, especially, you know, if you look at the middle class is really getting hammered with inflation and it's really getting to be a problem.

Uh, you have the tariffs, which is adding to the inflation, different things of that nature, right?

And then the uncertainty of that, uh, so, and, and let's not forget a lot of people are not really talking about this.

Well, some people are, I guess, but it's not, I don't think it's spoken about enough.

Private credit is a crisis in private credit, right?

Uh, and we don't know how that's gonna unfold, and we also now have a war with, you know, US, Israel, and Iran.

And that's, um, you know, leading to an oil shock and how does that, you know, how long does that war, we, we, you know, I, I guess, you know, a lot of, I'm not, I'm not a, uh, an oil uh trader, but you know from what I'm seeing out there, 4 weeks is kind of like where, where it's at like, you know, they, they're taking, uh, President Trump at his word that 4 weeks is gonna be done, but if it persists after 4 weeks and from what I'm seeing it looks like it may do that.

Um, and what happens, right, uh, you know, it, it could potentially cause a global recession.

Now I'm not saying that that's gonna happen or not, but what I, I am very sure about is that I don't think crypto will outperform a crash.

Now that doesn't mean that's a bad thing.

I mean that, that just means that, uh, if, if it does happen, then that weak hands will just, who are weak will just, will, will go away and the strong hands will come.

So that those are just natural things that happen, uh, market, uh, uh, forces.

So I, I think that crypto will be fine, um, but I think that there is, you know, potential, potentially a lot of volatility, uh, ahead and it could be, uh, a rough, you know, 66 months, maybe, you know, for the rest of the year, uh, but aside from that, you know, you have those market forces.

But then something else that's really important that I did not mention, uh, we do need, uh, the, the market structure bill to, to, to pass, uh, and, and particularly before the midterms.

If that doesn't pass before the midterms and then the Democrats come into the House, I don't think we're gonna get a market structure anytime soon and, and so, um, or at least until maybe after the presidential, you know, the next presidential elections, so.

Um, you know, those are things that are, uh, that crypto has a risk of.

That doesn't mean that, you know, crypto is not gonna bounce back or, or do things, but those are, uh, challenges, those are headwinds that are, um, that are ahead for, for folks in, in, in crypto.

So I suspect that it's gonna be, you know, a tough, tough few months, uh, especially in the, in the short intermediate view.

That's that's, that's my guess.

A tough go because there's so many different factors that are moving parts for sure.

Um, Ed, do you have any last thoughts before we wrap up with the closing questions?

Um, last thoughts, I mean, I, I, I, I, I would say that, um, you know, Defi is, I think, on the verge of, of doing something really, really powerful, and, and, and we're seeing it now, right?

Like you're seeing a lot of uh talk about tokenization.

Uh, and, and you also see, you know, a lot of, and it's very early, and, and I don't wanna oversell what we're seeing on chain, but we are seeing billions of dollars.

I think the last time I checked it was like $25 billion on, on chain in terms of real world assets, and that, and, and again that's really tiny in comparison to, to, to the traditional markets, you know, commodities and bonds and stuff like that.

But I think that we're gonna see a lot more of these, uh, uh, uh, uh, more, more of tokenization, uh, happening.

Um, and then when you, when you add in, you know, agentic, uh, or AI agentic, uh, you, you, you, you have a, a, a, a recipe for something that can be very explosive.

So I, I wouldn't, you know, although there is gonna be, I think, some tough moments in the, in the short and intermediate, uh, uh, term for crypto, I think that if you are a long-term, uh, um, investor or a long-term thinker here.

I think that you, there's, there's a lot of positivity here and a lot of opportunity here.

So, um, it's good not to be a trader and I'm, I'm a trader, so I'm not saying, but unless you are really into this thing and you are a professional, I think it's good to be an investor in this situation because you can, you can, there's a lot of opportunities, especially in, in the long term.

I really believe it.

OK, thank, thanks for sharing that.

Um.

Let's get into the wrap up questions.

What is a fun fact about yourself that most people don't know?

Wow.

Um, A fun fact, uh, OK, I'm a, uh, uh, a martial artist.

I'm, uh, I, I study Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Um, I also study boxing and all that.

Well, I've been doing boxing for a while in taekwondo, but, I'm a purple belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

I compete.

So, so if you see me with a black eye out there once in a while, it, it's, I'm not a, a street fighter.

Sometimes I get an elbows in my eye or something like that.

So I think that's a fun fact.

That's pretty cool.

No, that's awesome and a great skill to have because you never know when you might have to use it, hopefully not, but especially if I get, you know, big, like, you know, like some of these, these crypto guys because I remember I went to, uh, what was it last year I went to the, the salt.

I went to out in Wyoming and I saw some of these, some of these billionaires, they were, they had their bodyguards with them, and I, I feel like, man, it'd be cool if, if I, I could be like my own bodyguard or something like that.

No bodyguards needed.

I'm my own bodyguard.

Exactly.

Hilarious.

Um, is there anything you wanna compel the audience to consider, uh, you know, after all the things that we talked about today?

Um, oh, well, I'm, I'm, it's a shameless plug, but hey, you, you should go visit the Atomic Vault, uh, uh.XYZ, um, and sign up and just keep up on, on the latest and greatest of what we're doing.

There's a lot of exciting things coming up in this quarter, so please sign up.

Uh, it's, it, it's gonna be really exciting.

Amazing, yes.

Make sure to sign up.

And that goes into the last question, what are the best ways for people to, to contact you and, and, and keep up with all the amazing things you're doing?

Yeah, um, I guess I'll send this over to you, but, um, uh, LinkedIn, um, is, is a, a big thing.

I'm on, I'm on X, uh, as well, but not too much, but I'm, I'm on there scouting, uh, and, um, I, I, yeah, I think those, those are the two, the two places that if you wanna talk and chat with me.

I'm, I'm definitely, I'm definitely, uh, at those.

Places.

But I, I'll send you so you guys can post it up here.

Perfect.

We'll put them in the show notes for sure.

And you know, Malik, thank you for joining us today.

Special thanks to our butterscotch queens and kings out there for joining the conversation.

And be sure to check out all of the Get Down Beyond Bitcoin episodes on your favorite platforms.

Until next time.