Advancing Policy to Catalyze Blockchain Solutions & Innovation with Nilmini Rubin, Chief Policy Officer at Hedera

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Welcome to The Get Down.

Welcome my butterscotch kings and queens.

I'm Cleve Messador.

I will be your host for this episode with Nelmini Rubin, Chief Policy Officer at Hadera.

She is a policy ghoul.

She has lobbied on cybersecurity for the Information Technology Industry Council and also contributed to Meta's policy team.

Namini led Tetra Tech's global division, implementing energy and internet projects that resulted in millions of people gaining access to electricity.

She served as a senior aide at the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee and also at the US House Foreign Affairs Committee, where she spearheaded passage of legislation to provide electricity access in Africa, increase global internet access, and reduce corruption.

She also previously served as a director at the White House National Security Council.

There, she helped secure agreements on non-proliferation, international health and foreign aid.

Nilmini was named a young global leader by the World Economic Forum, and she is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and an advisor to the Women's Democracy Network.

Without further ado, let's start the conversation.

Nilmini, my butterscotch queen, welcome to the Get Down Beyond Bitcoin podcast.

Thank you for joining us.

I'm excited to dive into our conversation.

But before we talk about your leadership at Hadera, tell us about your journey into crypto.

What brought you into this space?

Well, thank you for having me, Clave.

I'm really excited to be here.

I got into crypto because I thought this was the future of finance, and I wanted to be part of this new Community, this new technology that was helping people lift themselves out of poverty and also helping people accumulate wealth and really making our economy more efficient.

I thought it really connected all the dots of everything I've done in the past and I was really excited to to hop into crypto.

Wow, that's actually very compelling in terms of, you know, this whole, it connected all of the dots because you have such an impressive background and dynamic expertise.

So I wanna go into your policy background a bit because you previously worked in Congress.

You worked in the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee and also with the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Did that policy experience also influence you and help to connect those dots?

Absolutely.

In policy, so in addition to the Hill, I'd worked in the administration, I'd worked at the White House and Treasury, and I'd worked at the Federal Reserve.

And in each place that I worked, I touched on national security issues, which crypto is connected to.

It's all international.

Crypto is natively foreign policy connecting the dots between countries.

My remit in most of those roles was international finance and international economics, which is, you know, the foundation of crypto.

And I worked on technology policy as well.

So it really like brought it together.

But one of my favorite projects on the Hill was when I worked for the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

I worked for Chairman Ray, and he was very passionate about Africa.

And asked me to lead some work on trade.

We had this bill that provided trade benefits to African countries, and we're trying to figure out why those countries weren't utilizing the benefits as much as we thought they should.

So we looked, I went to a few different countries with my Democratic counterparts.

I was on the Republican staff, and we came back with this understanding that it wasn't just about like trade and trade law and trade barriers.

It was really about electricity.

You cannot make the quality and quantity needed for the US market if you don't have electricity.

And we together wrote this bill called the Electrify Africa Act, which created the the Power Africa initiative.

Um, that the US government supported and provided more than 100 million people with first-time electricity access.

And that also connected me or made me interested in crypto, because at the time, people were talking about crypto and, and it's, um, you know, some of the challenges with, with electricity use.

And when I saw this poster about Hadera and how little energy use it used, I was like, oh, that's where I want to be.

Wow, talk about connecting the hat, sorry, the dots, and especially with electricity and the work that you did in Congress and seeing, you know, that limited electricity use being an attraction to Hadera, you know, and hearing you talk, I think about how, you know, crypto's borderless, right?

And, and also the reason Other areas, other jurisdictions like the continent of Africa or like the Caribbean and Latin America have been able to leapfrog leveraging blockchain cryptocurrency is because that they, they are, they are not on this grid like we are in, in the Western Hemisphere that they can actually leapfrog and with just the use of that cell phone, that smartphone, or that device, that one device can connect them.

To the digital finance economy in a way, and I, and I get a feeling that the work that you did helped to actually spur that.

You're, you're totally right.

It's just amazing to see the, the leaps in technology.

And internet was another thing I worked on the hill was internet access, because it, it's not even.

There's so many people who still don't have internet access around the world.

And what we also saw that there was a difference in who got internet access.

So you saw more men getting online than women and having access to, to the, the basics.

Of, of the internet or access to cell phones.

And so we, we also did some work on that, on, on how to address kind of the gender barriers to, to internet access.

And when you think about that magnifies with crypto, like we want to make sure women do have internet access and can use their phone and, and have access to financial payments that they, they need for themselves and their families.

Well, you've brought a lot of expertise to Hadera, and I just came from Miami.

I attended HaderaCon and you know, you moderated quite a few panels.

Congratulations on that conference.

It was a pre-conference to consensus, part of consensus in Miami.

You know, what were some of the highlights, because I saw there were a few announcements during Hadera Khan.

Yes, well, I, I also thought Hadera Khan was fabulous, and, and part of that is because I can't take credit for any, any part of it.

It was fabulous because our marketing team just knocked it out of the park and organizing it and just did great, pulled together great panels.

But we, we had fabulous policy sessions.

Um, we had, you know, people from the White House like Patrick Witt and Harry Zhang, and we had, we just, we had a wide range of, of people from different companies, different trade associations, um, and then we, we did have a number of announcements from, from Hadera and the network and our Co-founders talked about Clipper, which is a new innovation that would allow different movement of, of information to move seamlessly across networks.

So, really, really making even crypto more borderless between Pri them and, and Mance Harmon, one of our co-founders kind of talks about invisible ubiquity.

And, and that was really what, what the innovation is striving for.

No, it was interesting to hear about, you know, the work that Heder is doing to, and I love the term invisible ubiquity, but also to really, you know, foster that interoperability and especially as we look at digital finance as a whole, you know, it's great that, you know, Hadera is looking at the future of digital finance.

In a very holistic way, you know, anchored in the crypto native space, but also looking at not just traditional finance, but a lot of major companies that are part of the whole supply chain and value chain, you know, industries, you know, FedEx was a big announcement that you guys just joined Adera.

Yes, and, and FedEx is actually using Hadera for supply chain purposes and tracking.

So you're exactly right there.

So yeah, we're super excited about FedEx joining recently.

Also, we recently had Accenture join and McLaren Racing.

Wow.

I think of, you know, Hadera as the AWS of crypto, really, you know, an ecosystem, a studio, a place where people can create, you know, their own stablecoins or their own, you know, small.

Contracts or or different products and services, a place where, you know, you can really innovate.

So going back to Haderaon, there was a lot of conversations about clarity, and I don't want to make the connection, but we came back a week later and had a markup and now Will we get a a a Senate vote?

So, you know, I, I think some of a lot of the conversations during Hadera Khan were anticipating that we would get the Senate banking markup, but a lot of speculation as to whether or not we'll get the full Senate vote this year that would take us to reconciliation and, and get the bill to the president's desk.

Yes, I'm really hopeful that the Clarity Act will pass into law.

You know, we saw the, the House version pass the House in a bipartisan manner, and we had the Senate Ag bill passed there.

Version.

We had the Senate Banking Committee last week pass their version with in a bipartisan manner as well.

So I was hopeful we went to the markup and it was, it was really exciting to be in the room and To, to see how things were coming together.

Like you could really see both sides of the aisle working together on amendments to like, find a way to build agreement on tax.

So, it was really like dynamic and exciting.

And I'm hopeful that it will, will pass the Senate.

When you look at what happened to the Genius Act, 18 Democrats supported the Genius Act and So, if you, you kind of look at that list and, and, you know, those are all members who are really informed about crypto and its, it's utilization, like, there are definitely members that can be won over once we get to the floor to, to make it happen.

It's just, it's just a process.

It's pretty unusual to have to have two committees.

Um, piece together a bill to move it.

So procedurally a little bit more complicated, but it's doable and it's only May.

We have, we have a few more months to get this over the line.

So I'm really hopeful that it will move cause it's, as you know, it's so important.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it was great that, you know, they were able to use procedure on the House side to have a combined House Ag and House Financial Services bill.

It's, you know, less, less easy on the Senate side, but, you know, I do think that it, it, the fact that two committees does create a better pathway to 60 when you look at, you know, Democrats like Booker who really helped.

To negotiate the Senate g bill, but definitely rested on ethics, but I think we'll get a compromise on ethics, and I think we'll get to 60.

So nobody is popping champagne yet, so there's still a lot of work to do.

But as you said, this is very important.

We need that clarity, and that clarity from this bill is just a baseline.

There's so much more work to be done beyond this bill.

When I went to a a dinner last night, and someone was asking me what we're working on, and I was like, I was talking about the bills, and like, every person at the table was like, wait, why is Ag working on crypto?

And I was like, well, it's because they, they work on commodities and there's the commodities Future Trading commission and the CFTC and, and so they have jurisdiction over it and they're like, OK, but I feel like for most people, they're like, we get Senate Banking, but we don't get ag, so it does make sense.

Yeah, well, the 1930s policies that's still Handicap our financial system, you know, that we've come a long way from what's a commodity and what's a security, but it's really hard to get our regulatory system to, you know, adapt to a new financial instrument like digital assets that can be both.

Yes.

Well, I don't want to put you on the spot, but do you have any outlook for 2026?

Because, you know, when you think about we have so little time with midterms and the general election coming up soon, you know, it sounds like you're optimistic, it sounds like you think we have a few months, but when it comes to crypto policy, We need to pass the clarity bill into law to actually get to taxation.

That piece, that debate is looming.

We've already seen, you know, Max Miller and and Stephen Horsford, you know, talk, introduced legislation.

So to get, put a spotlight on that, you know, we need to wrap up, you know, the clarity piece.

So what's your outlook for this year in terms of all of the legislative priorities for crypto beyond clarity?

So Beyond clarity, I think you're spot on that it's tax.

I think everyone's starting to coalesce around tax.

There's lots of calls now, people trying to figure out like where different people are on tax and who could maybe aligned to work and educate members and where the sticky points might be.

Um, we're also spending time on talking to other countries, like cause the UK is working on the same thing.

Um, and trying to see what we can, what ideas we can borrow from other countries to try to inform members here because ideally, we would have Uh, tax regimes that are interoperable, that we're not like managing things radically differently in the US than in Europe and the UK, and then rulemaking.

You know, like, even if, if God forbid, clarity didn't pass, like the rules will still be written, and we just saw, you know, last month, the SEC and CFTC came out with a really great piece, kind of clarifying their interpretation of current law and laying that out.

And so we will expect.

To see more from them.

So people really need to to pay attention to what the SEC and CFTC are coming out with.

Yeah, rulemaking is the tricky part.

That's why I tell people, you know, we need to take compromises, we need to move bills into law because the rulemaking is the hard part.

That's actually even harder than actually passing legislation.

But you know, working on policy, you know, must be interesting.

You clearly seem like you enjoy it.

Are there specific milestones that you think about or any types of highlights that have been great for you in terms of, you know, bringing your Body of knowledge to Hadera and then seeing the company grow over the last few years.

Well, I do love policy.

I just think it's so much fun and crypto policy, especially because things are being written now, you know, and so you can work on like other topics like Privacy.

I, I, I worked on privacy like 20 years ago, and there's still no federal bill on privacy, you know, and it's still a patchwork of state, and it's just different with crypto, like things are moving, you know, we, we did see that with genius and, and I'm very hopeful with clarity.

So, like, it's, it's just a really exciting time because you're like, OK, I can talk to people and inform policymakers about this thing and they'll, they'll think about it and integrate it into the words that they put on the page.

So, I just think it's really an exciting moment.

For Hadera, I, I was really pleased with the last report the SEC and the CFTC came out with because they described what a digital commodity was and we were reading the definition.

We were like, this is a really good definition, like, and, and we, we fit, like this is where we fit.

And then at the end, they gave examples of different digital commodities and they listed HB as one of them and I was really, really pleased.

That that was there because it just provides like, I mean, I don't want, I guess, lowercase clarity for us on, you know, where, where the, the token stands.

It's really, really helpful.

And, and then we are, I think that just from, from a Hadera vantage point, you know.

We're really happy that policymakers have like understood the decentralized governance model and and really thought through how that should be addressed in, in legislation because the Hadera council.

It's up to 39 organizations and we have entities on the council that are like, well, like we mentioned, Accenture, FedEx, McLaren, but IBM, Google, um, London School of Economics, just this wide range of entities on the council, and they make the big decisions for the network.

And they operate nodes.

And so it's, we know where our nodes are, we know who we're running them.

And, and it's a different structure than many other layer ones have.

And so we, for us, just having policymakers around the world understand that the difference and the benefits of, of that structure has really been, been a win.

And it's been a win for the industry as well because over the last few years, it has been about education and engagement and normalizing this relationship about blockchain and cryptocurrency and making it make sense.

So, you know, I, I've seen your leadership firsthand and, you know, really commend you for the important work that you lead and you do it with such grace.

And we're both on the board of directors of Blockchain Foundation, which is a trusted entity in crypto, you know, and we focus on education, but you're a proponent of leading with learning, which is one of the great things, you know, I think has led to a lot of the successes that you've had.

You know, we've worked together on a few projects for blockchain.

Foundation in collaboration of Hadera.

One of the things that comes to mind is a few years ago we did the Learning series and we, which featured, you know, congressional wealth creation and financial literacy caucus chairs, Yong Kim and Joyce Beatty, and we're able to have those two members of Congress participate in the briefings.

And, and, you know, your, your guidance on the board of Black Chain Foundation has been very critical because the focus is bipartisanship, the focus is continuing to educate, and the core-focus is, you know, connecting with key stakeholders.

And, and that's very reflective of the way clearly Hedera is building.

So, you know, we would love your thoughts on, you know, your, your focus on leading with learning and some of the work that you do with Black Chain Foundation and other groups.

Well, thanks, Clove.

You were, you were spearheading all of that work, and I was, I'm just so grateful for your work in educating people through the project we did together, but just generally, it's just been so impressive.

And I really enjoyed that series that we did with, with the different congress um people.

Especially because we went to their districts.

It wasn't just in Washington.

And I think just having the members see their constituents that care about crypto policy was really powerful and just immensely grateful to like that you, you led that, that work.

Um, we When I was on the hill.

I covered econ for, for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and I was lucky that I had that narrow of a portfolio.

Like it was econ, but the whole world, right?

Because you had like staffers and like personal offices that do like judiciary and And the finance committee and like, you know, like multiple committees, different topics, different, you know, a wide range of things, and they, they have to stay on top of everything.

And, and so when we come in to help educate members, it's not because they They're, yeah, you know, and they're uneducated.

It's because they have so much that they're responsible for that like you have to like help them see the the pieces that are the most important for, for the issue.

And, and so I do think it's really important to be patient and meet people where they are, and keep going back, right?

Because staff change, members change, and so you kind of, you can get to the point, I think with policy where you're like, oh, I've done this briefing, like I've done this before, but you have to keep remembering it's like, it's new people.

And in a democracy, there's, you know, a few million people that you have to factor in, you know, it takes a while and you can't just expect someone to take your word for something when they hear it for the first time.

You know, you have to come in, other people have to come in and, and they have to like see things for themselves.

So it's, it's definitely like a repetitive process.

Absolutely.

I think that's why.

Industry benefits so much from people like you who actually come from Capitol Hill and understand how Washington works, has worked in an administration and understands the the way the complexities of moving the train across Washington.

You know, the crypto has benefited from tremendous growth very quickly, but The the Washington system is still that, so, you know, you're understanding that we still have to still do the fundamentals, we still have to continue to educate and then doing it, do it again as the committee shift and new members come in.

So, you know, Padera is lucky to have you, but the industry is as well.

You're very kind.

Well, I want to wrap up with a few questions and, you know, please, please feel free to add any unique thoughts, but I, we always like to include a fun question, you know, a fun fact that nobody knows about you or most people don't know about you.

And so, anything you'd like to share, any fun facts?

My fun fact that some people may know is I am a competitive adult ice skater.

Um, so I have a, I have a competition this weekend, in fact.

Oh my goodness.

It's very silly, but I love it.

Like I love the music, I love the costumes, I love the like the speed on the ice.

I like, I just love everything about figure skating.

Well, it is not silly.

I'm sure audience is saying, oh my God, I need a fun hobby like that.

You know, as you know, crypto is 24/7, you live and breathe it, and, but you're also a mom and a wife, and then you make time for this thing that you clearly love.

So, I think for many out there who are trying to figure out how do I balance work and life and responsibility, oh my God, why has this remained a priority for you?

OK, so I think, I think fun is the fountain of youth.

Like, I think that if you have like at least a little bit of fun every day, you're more energized to do all of the other things that you need to do.

But when you're like, if things are a drag, it's like, it's just like it's hard to get the energy to like step up, and so if you have like something to look forward to, it's really energizing.

So I, I, I really do think fun's important.

And then when you have kids, like when my teen, my kids are teenagers and they're, they're older, but I do think it's, it's good for them to see that their parents have fun too.

Their, their life isn't just a slog of, of, you know, errands, that like that some things.

Some things that are just frivolous get fit fit in.

No, I think that's a good point that your kids see that you have balance, that you have things that are uniquely yours.

And I would say, you know, figure skating is a competitive sport and, you know, those are skills you need in the crypto space, but also in the crypto policy space.

So I'm sure that comes in handy.

There are, maybe it's all sports, right?

But like there are definitely sports lessons and you think about like sports psychology, it's actually like so translatable into business psychology, you know, like setting a goal, like, you know, I think about like at the end of the year, what do we want to accomplish on the the policy team, and like, and same with like a sport, you set this goal, like this is the big competition, and then you back into like all the steps you need to do to get there.

And, and then with sports, right, you like go, OK, this is muscle memory.

You get to the point where you just don't need to think about it, and you do it.

And I think like with a lot of work functions, you can get to that.

You can like just practice things so much that you, they just become automatic and um and then it it ends up being less effort in the long run.

No, so you have a significant competitive advantage over a lot of your contemporaries.

It would be fun to do like um a crypto sports uh group because you know, there's there's there's like Ari who's a runner, like there's a bunch of people that are really into their, their sport.

Well, I, I know quite a few people who would love to have you teach us skating.

It won't be competitive.

It'll probably be very elementary.

But good luck on your competitive, your competition coming up.

We hope you win.

Thank you.

I do too.

Well, as we wrap up, any final thoughts, any call to action for folks who are listening who may be thinking about Crypto policy or how to get in there.

Well, for those in the, the crypto industry or care about crypto, I encourage you to reach out to your members of Congress in both the House and the Senate and just let them know you care about the Clarity Act and you encourage them to vote yes.

It really matters.

Like they count the calls.

So it really matters.

And calls matter and letters matter more than tweets and emails, just in the hierarchy.

So that's one thing, but on getting into policy, I think the best way to get into crypto policy is just start showing up.

Like there are lots of like breakfast groups or even a hearing um at different events and like the, you start showing up and you start talking to people and like, you know, someone's heard of a, a role that you might fit into.

There's loads of jobs on like the blockchain association job board and, and policy, but a lot of the, like the important things or understandings we get in policy are from conversation.

They're not always written down, and like kind of by the time it's written down, it can be a little stale.

So really like showing up to as much as you can in person is really valuable.

Love that, love that.

So two calls to action.

One, tell your members of Congress about clarity, where you stand, call them, write them, but let them know that you support clarity and also crypto policy, and then show up, show up, show up if you're interested in crypto and crypto policy or any aspect.

Just show up.

Just start engaging.

Love, love, love that.

So Namini, how can people, you know, connect with you?

Should they go on, on text, on LinkedIn, on the Hadero websites?

What's the best way?

The best way to reach me would be LinkedIn.

To connect to Hadera would be either X or LinkedIn.

We have a lot of great information that comes out from the official account about what's happening in policy, but also what's happening with the network, all of our innovations, technically, our new partnerships with different entities.

So, I really encourage you to follow Hadera on our official accounts.

Wonderful, wonderful.

I know you're very active on LinkedIn, so I would, for folks out there, I think that's a good place to connect.

So, Nelmini, thank you so much for joining us.

I really loved the conversation, really thrilled to get your insights, and thank you for making the time.

Thank you so much for having me.

Special thanks to all of you, my butterscotch kings and queens out there for joining this conversation.

And be sure to check out all episodes from seasons 1 and 2 on your favorite platform.

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Thank you.